Matt Forde - Part 1

Craig Oliver: Matt, I often start these podcasts with the incredibly original question, how are you? But I was thinking, um, that that felt a bit more significant and poignant in this case.
Matt Forde: Maybe. I mean, I'm good is the honest answer. So, um, uh, it's not a bad question to ask. I feel really good. I feel very positive. Um, but obviously I've been through something that a few months ago I would never have guessed I was going to go through, which was being diagnosed with cancer and then having major surgery to have it removed. And, and those things really have only reaffirmed my view that, that life is a wonderful thing to be enjoyed, and something to be, if you're lucky enough, very, very positive about.
Craig Oliver: Well, you're incredibly, exuberant and I've listened to a few things you've been doing recently and even just seeing you now, you look incredibly well, but what I was thinking a lot about, like it was less than a year ago, I think it's probably nine, 10 months ago that we recorded the podcast, uh, with you and you were heading off to get married and life seemed to be going in a certain direction and then suddenly bam. You were very very sick. Just talk us through exactly what happened.
Matt Forde: I mean, I still see, some people said to me, Oh God, you know what an awful year you had. You know, you got married and then all of a sudden you were diagnosed with cancer. It was an amazing year. Like, I got married, had a honeymoon, and ended the year cancer free. So I think, and I don't mean that, that wasn't any effort on my part to reframe a tragedy as a positive thing. That is genuinely in my heart and soul how I felt. So, at the end of July last year, just a few months ago, I started getting what felt like a hamstring strain at first, and then what escalated to terrible sciatica in my left buttock and I was at the Edinburgh festival. It was early August and the pain was just incredible. It was blistering pain, not just like a bit of an ache, red hot pain. I couldn't sit and I couldn't lie down and I was just sort of on my feet all day, daring not to move, sweating. And I went to see a doctor who gave me very strong painkillers, which helped but also said you need an MRI because you've probably just have slipped a disc and that's what's causing the sciatica.
So I got an MRI and then at the end of August he had to tell me that it was as he put it. He said oh, there's a lesion on the spine and he started using all these words and my wife works oncology and was like do you mean it's cancer? He said yeah and then like that…obviously I just didn't expect it, because why would I? I didn't, apart from the pain, I didn't feel ill. And also, even when he was saying, oh, it's a bit unusual, oh, it's a bit of lesion on the spine, I thought, you know, these problems can be solved. I'll just have to, I'll just have to have an operation basically.
Craig Oliver: So what? In that moment you weren't like wait what this is just completely bizarre I can't really cope? but you were all you were actually just thinkin, Oh, well, they'll just sort it.
Matt Forde: Sort of, yeah. And then when he, when he does say it's cancer, you go, oh crikey. And then your head swims a little bit, but what he kept saying was it's slow growing and it's not life threatening. So I thought, well I've got to cling on to, not even that, I, he told me those things and I, and they registered as they should have done, which was not to panic.
Obviously you get a bit of adrenaline. I then spoke to a surgeon, this was still while we were in Scotland, and um, He said, well it's very rare, it's a thing called a Chordoma, so one in a million people get them in the UK every year. And he maybe operates on one of them a year. So he said, if you want to go to the surgical route, London's your better bet, because at the Royal National Orthopaedic, they'll see so many more of these, and he'll be operating on someone who, who operates on this more regularly, even though he was happy to do it. So, we also had a conversation about radiotherapy, and there's this thing called proton-beam therapy, which is this new form of radiation, where the radiation only releases, effectively, the dose once it hits the tumor. And it sounds like it does less damage to the tissue on the way through. So I thought, well that's great. I'll just have that. I'll just have it zapped out. And what a lucky boy. I've been told I've got cancer but I can, you know, have this painless way to have it zapped out like in a film. And that'll be great. And then it quickly…and I don't think I was trying to delude myself, you know, because they were saying have radio have this proton- beam therapy so it's not like I was searching for an easy answer… I was in my view rationally reacting to what I was being told but once I was transferred to London clear then actually that was that was not an option
Craig Oliver: I'm reminded of a quote by Joan Didion who wrote a book about when her husband died very suddenly. He had a heart attack and died and it's a sort of famous grief memoir and the opening lines of that book are life changes fast, life changes in an instant, you sit down to dinner and life as you know it ends and what I think she's trying to say at that moment is that there's just sometimes there's just these moments where suddenly everything changes. So, I mean, I'm interested in that moment where they say cancer, and then you're like, it's time to go, and you're walking away, what was that conversation like? Was it a kind of like you know, struggling to orientate yourself, or was it perfectly rational and that kind of thing?
Matt Forde: A little bit of both. I mean, your legs, my legs felt a bit like jelly, like it's a, it's a huge amount of adrenaline, but , you know, I don't know a lot about cancer. I know, just from the sheer amount of people that get it, that there are various different forms of it and it's treated in various different ways.
So I thought there's no need to panic now because they're telling me it's slow growing and it's not life threatening. So they're the crucial things. And it sounds like I can just have this radiotherapy. I did. I said to my wife, we, we, I need to go for a whiskey. So we went to this bar in Glasgow and just sat and processed it and I think she was a bit more ahead of the game in realizing that this was not going to be easy that this was going to be a slightly harder experience because she's in that world and she sees a lot of it. So it was only actually once once I was transferred to London I mean we then had an amazing week in Glasgow because at the end of the Edinburgh Festival we go to Scotland for a week and just see family go to Loch Lomond and places like that.
So I had a great week. I was talking to my wife about it the other day, she was like, that was one of the worst weeks of my life, you know, you've just been told you've got cancer and then we were in limbo, and I was like, it was great! We went out every night, we saw all our friends, like, at that point I just thought, well, this is going to be dead easy and enjoy myself accordingly. But once we were in London, then it became clear, and that's when I was then having those moments where you're really having to come to terms with, um, something very big happening.
Craig Oliver: And when was it clear that it wasn't going to be dead easy?
Matt Forde: So when I had my first appointment at the Royal National Orthopaedic this is a, hospital at Stanmore that is highly specialised, that, that people get referred to from all over Britain. And it is specifically an orthopaedic hospital that has no A& E department. It is this island that only concentrates on that. And, as a result, has world leading specialists there that, that are all focused on, on orthopaedic surgery and treatment.
So one of the things I'm very grateful for, and that played a key part really in keeping me positive was that I was in this very special place. But the first appointment that I have there is with the man that would operate on me, a phenomenal man called Hanny Anwar, and we're sitting in this room and he says, we do have to eliminate the fact that it's not a secondary tumor.
It may have metastasized. And at that point, that's when I really started to appreciate that this could actually be a far more difficult process and that there, that actually there might be a bit of pain involved and the thing that I am most scared of is pain, is physical pain. And, um, I just thought, Oh God, this is, and also, so it's that, but also he said it could be lymphoma.
Matt Forde: It could be blood and it could have moved around the body. And then you think, okay, this isn't what I was told.
Craig Oliver: Did that fear hit at that moment?
Matt Forde: A little bit and then you're then your brain's moving so quickly that because you don't know what he's gonna say next and he's very serious and you're talking about cancer and the fact that it may be in multiple places in my body I know then that that's very, very bad. I know enough from talking to my wife about cancer that once it metastasizes, it's different. And the outcomes are different for most people. So then I was like, oh, fuck. And I was just like, oh, God. And then, I mean, there might have only been like a second in between him finishing one sentence and starting the next. The thing I remember more than anything was just sort of looking out the window and just, firstly, it was, it wasn't even like a thought. It was a thought, but it was almost something more than that. It was just, the very calm, but very urgent desire to stay alive. Like a, a, an absolute clarity of body and mind, which I grew up in a God fearing house, and, uh, uh, uh, and don't believe in God anymore, though I have huge respect for religion, but If I was still a religious person, I would say at that moment that was almost like God telling me to live.
It felt like such a different feeling to anything I'd ever had before. It was almost just like it was, I'd never had a thought that clear or a feeling where a thought and a feeling were together in unity. And there was something very calming about it. In that little bit, the thing that worried me was that I didn't feel like This was my time to go. I thought this is too early. This isn't fair. And I really, the only thing I wanted to be around for was to spend more time with my wife. That was the only thing. That in that point I wanted was to stay alive so that we had more time. Just do whatever you can remove every part that you physically kind of this chop, saw, blast, anything you can, you need to stay alive.
And that was, that in itself was a phenomenal thing to feel. So the surgery I had, it was a 13 hour operation in three parts. The tumour was on my sacrum, which is the base of the spine. It's like the triangular part of the spine that plugs in to like the pelvis hip bit. And it's got five little vertebrae on it, and they removed two, three, four, and five. So then the only thing keeping my spine plugged into that big middle bone is just like, one vertebrae.
I was in intensive care for a week after the surgery. I vaguely remember wailing and screaming one night. I don't really remember it being a week, because I was so, I had lots of morphine. I think I had fentanyl. Tramadol, all sorts of things. I don't think my wife could keep track of what they were giving me to deal with the post surgical pain. I don't really, I remember it being a bit painful but what I really remember was, I felt very kind of trippy and I would have these moments where my eyes were so heavy and I would nod off for hours and I would have these beautiful dreams about Jack Grealish. Really vivid, bright, psychedelic, and it was like they were, it was almost like he would move. And it was almost like the effect on a Jackson 5 video, but it was like flowers would blossom behind him and things. And these, they were like…
Craig Oliver: Why Jack Grealish? I mean he is a very handsome, fine specimen of a man.
Matt Forde: He is. I never realized I felt this way about him, but then I would, then I would wake up. And I couldn't believe the time, because I'd been asleep, maybe five seconds. In the space of just my eyes briefly closing, I'd had what felt like lifetimes worth of dreams.
So, it's this major surgery, and then, um, the main thing that I battled in hospital wasn't, um, like, tedium. Because I had loads of box sets and football to watch. And my wife came all day, every day and friends came. And so I was very, very well looked after and very well tended to. And the staff were amazing, but it was, my fear of pain was sadly realized a few weeks in where I'd been making really good progress and then. Physically getting up and moving around I was on crutches and things and then I got this terrible blistering nerve pain in my legs and feet which was pain like I've never experienced before…where when I would get up and stand, even just contact. the gentlest contact with the floor were just my nerves would react like an electrical storm and I almost blacked out once and then for three weeks, you know, they were chucking painkillers at it, I was trying everything and it wouldn't, it was day and night, I'd have really strong sleep, sleeping tablets and wake up a few hours early in agony and the three weeks in the middle were soul destroying and I was just waking up every morning and just crying and sobbing and it felt like it was never going to end and then, and then it did and then I felt better.
Craig Oliver: I can imagine that that, that period, you say it's about three weeks, but that must have felt like an eternity just going through it. And as you say, there's fear and then there's also the reality of the pain. I'm just interested in how you got through that and how you coped with that. Was there a way of facing it that allowed, obviously you got through it, but was there a way of facing it that, that eased it? Or was it just, I'm going through this complete hell and I just need to get out the other side?
Matt Forde: I would just, yeah, I mean, it was only just the passage of time, really. I mean, the painkillers didn't feel like they were doing much. At times it was just completely hopeless, but with you know, my wife being there, the staff on the whole being excellent.
Craig Oliver: But you're, you're the most incredibly sunny personality, optimistic, excited, love life. But that moment, there must have been part of you that just comes out that is just like, what is the point of this? You know, anger, depression, unhappiness, no?
Matt Forde: It was, it was more just like a total, it was just very sad. I, I kind of deep down, I think I knew that it would pass and I knew that it was a price worth paying for, for, for what I was having and I would just try and, what I would tell myself is, every second that passes, you are getting closer and closer to this pain going. I don't know when it's going to go. Various things gave me strength. Firstly, my wife coming all day, every day, was the single big, on top of the actual, you know, care that I was given, and the medication, and the surgery, and the nursing, was the single biggest thing. And it would regularly occur to me that going through this on my own would have been so much harder.
And I probably, my mental health probably would have suffered severely without that. So that, that was a crucial thing. Having her there every day, having friends come really helped. Um, really I just had to grip my teeth and get through it. And I'm only really positive again, because that did recede. I think if I was still in a lot of pain, you're just not yourself…and actually my fear was that this was going to fundamentally change my personality. I was really worried that I would lose that optimism, because I feel very lucky to have it, and I can't explain where it comes from, really.
Craig Oliver: I think it's interesting that you say that, every second that passes, you're getting closer to the end. But it's not knowing how long it's going to go on for is presumably the torment.
Matt Forde: Yeah, and they would give you, you know, factual reassurance, kind of helps, but pain is a nerve pain, you know, they had, during this surgery, bashed and touched nerves that are not meant to be touched, you know, these aren't things that are close to the surface, these are, like, as deep into your body as you can go. They're not meant to be touched by medical equipment and hands, and they, nerves react differently to muscles. They take longer for the pain to come down, and there were various moments where…. in fact, you know, the single biggest moment of relief was talking to Sean Dyche, who's the Everton manager. I got to know him years ago when he was at Burnley, and he came through the youth system at Forest, so we know a lot of the same people, and he's a really funny man, but he'd, he rang me when I was in about week six and he'd had, I was desperate to talk to someone in football because one of the ways that I kind of got through it was thinking, well, football is getting, you know, a lot of the people that I idolized as a kid, I remember seeing pictures of them on crutches after they got injured and they got through it and they got on with life and they went on to continue to be athletes.
So that's in my mind. I was like, I'm just like a footballer with an injury of all the people I know in football. No one had ever had to battle nerve pain. So I was like, this is so specific. Anyway, he rang me and he said, he'd had terrible problems with nerve pain in his legs as a result of problems with his back and he said, it takes eight weeks for nerves to calm down. And after around eight weeks, roughly that mark, things will get better. And there's literally nothing else you can do, you've just got to grit your teeth and get through it. Literally eight weeks to the day from the end of, from the surgery, was the first day that I could stand up and start walking again. The pain had taken like a significant drop. So, and I don't think that was psychosomatic. In fact, the day that I got up, I didn't realize, um, the significance of it. And my wife said, oh my god, it was eight weeks ago.So it was like, it was like bang on when he said
Craig Oliver: That's amazing.
Matt Forde: You know, just, but that had reassured me a bit. I was like, right, he's been through this. He knows how tormenting it is. That voice of experience is a crucial thing and that really helped.
Craig Oliver: And just, just, just reflect on that for a moment because that's so interesting, isn't it? That sense of time becoming elastic
Matt Forde: It was just weird, I mean, I think there are things from being in hospital for a prolonged period of time. That you can learn about how, how to mark time and I think actually if you're going through a period where you're not entirely sure when you're going to be discharged or you're, you're going through something that's difficult and it has a deadline is hour to hour, day to day actually, it, progress can be very slow.
Matt Forde: But one of the things that happened, one of the most special things that happened was that, um, on Tuesday nights my wife couldn't be there. So my dad would come and look after me.
Now I was raised by my mum. I have a very, very good relationship with my dad, we have a lot of things in common. We get on very well. He worked, has worked in the NHS his whole life and has a very calm manner about him and he would come every Tuesday. The first Tuesday he came, I was in just. He was in the pits of despair in the middle of this terrible pain and was sobbing and was just saying to him I just hope I don't lose my positivity for life I hope this doesn't change my personality and he just had this lovely calm way of soothing me through it Um, and then the next week even though I felt like I hadn’t made much progress. He was like, oh you can move a bit better in the bed now and I hadn't really noticed that and then the following week my feet were able to touch the floor and then on the final week that I needed him to come was the first week I was able to do a bit of walking and then I was like, oh these, you know, time, you lose track of days You lose track of all sorts of things But him coming every week meant that I could mark that and then that, you know, just that little bit of hope, just that little bit…
Craig Oliver: You could see the progress,
Matt Forde: I could see the progress. And those Tuesdays were markers that, I mean, we had, and the very special thing was that I think, and I can't speak for him, but I imagine this is partly what he feels is, he finally got to actually do some parenting. Because he wasn't there for the difficult years. He didn't have to wipe our bums, or tell us off, or do any of that. I needed him in that moment, and, and effectively he, he fathered me in that in those Tuesdays. And that, that really has enriched our our relationship. I know that it meant a lot to him, and it certainly meant a lot to me.
Craig Oliver: That's really lovely and it's also really lovely talking about, you know, your wife being there all the time. I suppose what that makes me think about though is the impact on them. So, not in a bad way it's obviously all about you when you're sick and you know You're in real trouble and that you need to have massive interventions and lots of people looking after you and very focused on you and their lives have changed too, haven't they? I mean, particularly your wife. How did it impact her and were you aware of the sense of the impact it was having on her?
Matt Forde: Yeah, I mean, I think it's harder for her. I think the whole thing was harder for her. And I, I don't say that just in terms of you know when some people Almost like a sort of false modesty thing. I genuinely think it was harder because when you're the patient, really, all you're doing is enduring the physical element of it. That is, your primary focus is wanting to heal, wanting to get out, wanting the pain to end. That's really enough to be getting on with in body and mind. For your relatives, or your spouse, or for your friends, they come and see you in the most appalling state at first. You've been ripped open on both sides.You're wasting away. Certainly during the times when I was in pain, I was in a lot of distress. They're seeing you in a, in a, in a, in deep torment and really they feel powerless to do anything about it.
When I think back to that hospital, my perspective, my visual memory of that time is, looking out the window and friends and family coming and, and food, the food in the hospital was great and people coming to my bed and being very nice and very helpful. My wife's memory of that is of her husband with huge wounds on front and back, having just had to confront the fact that he's got cancer, going through pain, her memories of it, I think, are probably horrific and nightmare inducing, whereas my memories of it, on the whole, very, very pleasant and positive.
Craig Oliver: Did she manage to find a way to get help or talk to somebody about it?
Matt Forde: Her family are : a fantastic family, she's got twin sisters she's very close to, an older sister that she's very close to, a mum and dad, and they would come and visit as well. And our friends, lots of people in politics were very attentive. Lots of people at Nottingham Forest Football Club Were very very attentive and did very nice things for me and I think that helped she certainly had people to talk to I think probably She will need to process it more than I will in time, she has that help around her, but I think for her it was far more distressing than it was for me on the whole. You know, the the painful period was the hardest. The rest of it was a really fun time, it was, and even on those days, this is also a thing, is, even on the days of the most crushing, terrible pain, there were still moments where we laughed, and watched films.I mean, there’s joy in those moments.
Craig Oliver: That's exactly what I wanted to move on to next is, is humour. Because I've listened to a couple of, um, you know, chats with you, um, read a little bit of and obviously had some chats with you before this. You are incredibly direct about your colostomy bag, that kind of thing and also about, there was a bit where you were talking about the frequently asked questions about having a stoma. And one of them is about whether or not you can penetrate it, if you know what I mean. Um, and finding really, really direct black humour in a lot of this. I mean, I'm interested in that because on the one level, of course, you've got to laugh and it's, you know, laughter is a great medicine, all that kind of stuff. But there's also a way, I think, listening to you talk about it, of allowing you to confront something that is really quite dark, quite difficult, very hard.
Matt Forde: Oh, definitely. And if you are sat there in bed with a tube coming out, I mean, that was like, I had an indwelling catheter, that's one that's where there's a catheter inside you for eight weeks. Your friends and family are coming to visit you while you've got this thing hanging out of
Craig Oliver: And they can see it.
Matt Forde: They can see it filling up with piss, they can see how dehydrated you are or not, whether it's a nice straw colour or whether it's, you know, blood orange.
Matt Forde: And, uh, You can't not talk about it, you know, equally friends would come and because of my, because of the operation at first, I couldn't change my own Colostomy bags and nurses would have to do it. Some were more helpful than others So sometimes it's not like burst off and you're covered in shit now in that moment at first that is deeply distressing. But you you can't not on some level, you, you have to, in a way it's
Craig Oliver: I think there are some people who would struggle to find the humour in that moment.
Matt Forde: Yeah. I mean maybe…maybe afterwards you kind of, it, certainly I don't have children, but listening to friends of mine who are parents, they become deeply desensitized to feces. It's basically just, if you've got kids, your house is covered in it at a young age and it's on their face and it's in their fingernails and you know, after a while you, you lose, it loses its shock.
Craig Oliver: I suppose it's what, what, what I suppose what I'm trying to get to apart from the faeces element is like going there, confronting it and, and almost like saying, look, this isn't so big that I can't mock it.
Matt Forde: Oh no, absolutely, and I don't think anything is really, I think, particularly when it's you that's going through it. I kind of, there are moments actually where you're alone with your own mind in life, these big moments, where there might even be other people in the room, but certainly when you're left alone, you're talking to yourself, maybe out loud, or just inside your own mind, and you're talking to yourself in a way about how you're going to deal with it. And I always had a really perky internal monologue was that oh, well, you know, it's gonna be shit for a bit, but we'll get through it

Matt Forde - Part 2

Craig Oliver: You just automatically try and see the bright side, or not even try and see the bright side, are on see the bright side. And it's interesting, you said earlier that you couldn't describe where that came from. Because I suspect, for me, I would be pulling myself up and going, you know, fuck's sake, this is a nightmare sort of thing, and having to say, look, right, let's try and be positive about this. Let's try and find a way through it. I know you said that you couldn't really understand where that comes from, but can you try and explore that a bit?
Matt Forde: I mean it must have something to do with Mum I think. I think she was an optimist. She was a dreamer, on some level. She was a very hard headed pragmatist as well, but she always thought that things could be better. I think, growing up going to church, even though most of the time I found it very boring, I always thought there was a very hopeful element to Christianity.
Matt Forde: I was never really exposed to any fire and brimstone stuff. But I do just think, I just think I got lucky. I think there's something biochemical about it. I can't really explain
Craig Oliver: Yeah, I think that there is a biochemical element and somebody was asking me you know, what, what, why did David Cameron sort of take naturally to being a Prime Minister when I worked very closely with him? And one of the things I tried to say to them was like, he wakes up in the morning and he feels optimistic. He comes down the stairs and talks to us and you can see that he's looking forward to the day. And that's not a choice, it feels almost like that, that, that's, that's in him. And I think other people, like me, have to train themselves to be, to have that and say, look, it is a great world, there is a lot going on, it is exciting, it is wonderful. But there is basically a kind of biochemical thing going on, I think you're right.
Matt Forde: I think so, I think it's really the only way I can explain it is, I think it is nature, with a little bit of nurture…
Craig Oliver: I think you can change it. I do, every day, I write down ten things that I'm, you know, grateful for. And each day I have to go, that is amazing, yes, that is a good thing, that is a positive thing. Um, and that does help me reset, but it is a very conscious thing. Dragging me from a slightly glass half empty attitude to a glass half full one.
Matt Forde: And I feel terrible for you, you know, the last time we spoke on this show, I, I, I, we talked a bit about this, and I just felt, I feel really bad…
Craig Oliver: You've no reason to
Matt Forde: That you don't feel great. Do you know what I mean? I felt for you. Genuinely. I've thought about it a lot since. It's not fair that you feel like that. He's such a good guy.
Craig Oliver: Oh no, but look, I mean, that's really, I do think that's really sweet of you to say that and I'm not going around wanting to top myself and feeling depressed all the time, I think it is just in my nature and so I need to be aware about that. I need to think about that and I need to work on it and I do think like genuinely having this conversation with you makes me go Oh my God, you know, like you literally had your front ripped off, your back ripped off, lying in bed, couldn't stand up without agonizing pain, and you're still telling me what an amazing world it is.
And I think that that is a glass of cold water in the face to people like me. It's like, come on. And that is something that I have to do to myself. And that is something that I do think this is a podcast about wisdom and what you learn. I know that I need to shift my perspective and I do, that's why I find it really fascinating talking to you because you just come at it from a, you know, a really positive, grateful way. You are happy that you get to experience this life and almost, it doesn't really matter how boundaried it is, you would be happy that you've had this life and it's an amazing thing.
Matt Forde: Definitely. I mean, I think, two things that you said there really, I think, are very important. One is perspective, and that was something that was constantly, you know, it's something that I think is always there in my mind is… so when they said, it's not life threatening, I think, great. That is perspective right there. That is, I'm not going to die from this thing. So then I'm like Ding! A reason to feel good. That's good. I've always believed, and I realise that if you're in a very very difficult situation, however you would, um, define it, it's harder to be positive, there's no question about that.
You know, as you know, I grew up not well off in a difficult part of town and that has never left me, that life is really, really difficult for a lot of people. But with all those caveats, I've always believed that there is something magical about being alive, and I felt it as a child, I was always a bit of a dreamer, I think there is something special about life, and I think you have….even if you're not in a great place, if you live in a country like ours, I think there and all the other things being equal, you know, you do have a level of agency for yourself about how you can get the most out of each day and that doesn't mean you have to be some sort of thrusting Apprentice candidate, it's not necessarily it's not about like success in that regard, but just about what a good day is and just that life, you know, walking around and smelling the flowers and things like that, or, or just wearing your favourite tracksuit and watching a nice…
Craig Oliver: Well, I mean, the way, the way, the way it was put to me, and it really did shift my mindset, and it's definitely something I've got to keep working at daily, but it really did shift, shift my mindset, it's like, you get to be on this amazing planet, it's the best place in the known universe, um, you get to be here, you get to experience it, you get to meet amazing people, talk to amazing people, do amazing things. And here are some things that are really tough but that it is an extraordinary thing and no matter what happens, no matter how long it is to have experienced that if somebody said to you, you've got a choice of not experiencing that or experiencing that you would choose it every single time.
Matt Forde: What I'm really pleased about is, I've been through this thing, that's definitely the most difficult thing I've experienced in my life, and I didn't succumb to, I guess negativity or, or, or long term sadness. It didn't shake my belief that life is great. It didn't turn me into a more negative person. I look back on it and it's like a euphoric experience to have been. and I think about all those people that all the things that led them there, the little decisions about what university to go to, or what to study, or to be a nurse instead of doing something else, and then to work at that hospital at that time on that ward. And all those decisions they took in their lives led them to my bedside, and to look after me, and to, to recover me so well. Um, all those amazing people, you know, and I emerged in one piece, I think, paying a very, very small price for having a cancer, and that just feels magnificent.
Craig Oliver: I think that's a lovely way of putting it. Ofs all the way that all the chances that have happened that bring you to this moment, not just in terms of your life, but actually the whole 13 billion years of the universe, all the chances that happen that actually lead to this moment. Again, that makes you realize it's extraordinary. But what it also, I think, makes you realize is. Ultimately, you can't really control very much. And one day, you know, you're getting married, and you know, you're setting off on your new life, and then the next day, somebody says to you, actually, you've got this disease that one in a million people get each year.
Craig Oliver: And so that sense of lacking control, and I think once you start to realise that you lack control, and that you accept that, then again, life goes easier on you. You're like, much more willing to say, It's actually a pretty good deal overall. Um, you know, I shouldn't be trying to run around trying to make sure everything works and fits and is perfect. In reality, these things could come along and my life could just change in a moment.
Matt Forde: Can I just get the door? The postman's just knocked the door. Is that alright? Can we snip this bit?
Craig Oliver: What a moment, my deep profound moment and the postman comes. This is very funny, I was thinking I was being very deep and profound and Matt was actually itching to think can I get the post.
Matt Forde: Sorry about that.
Craig Oliver: That's alright.
Matt Forde: It was, he knocked right, I don't know if you heard the knock. But it's just, when the, when the knocker goes, it's just easier to get it rather than, because I'm on crutches, I'm to like waddle down to the um, you know when you get the sorry you're out card, it's a faff innit, so I was
Craig Oliver: Totally fine. Um, but no, look, we were talking a little bit there about, um, realizing you're not in control.
Matt Forde: Yes, that was it. You are absolutely right, on a kind of macro level, but there are things that are still in your control within that chaos. And it doesn't mean you have to try and apply order to everything and become obsessional, but small things like, um, you know, the thing that was out of my control was getting cancer, the thing that was in my control was what they call prehab, which was to get myself as fit as possible in the time that I had.
Going into that operation. There are still things you can do that improve your chances. Um, that includes being physically healthy. That includes being mentally healthy. That includes, if you want to…it, you know, obviously with me it always comes back to Blair, But a thing that he said in his resignation speech at where I was very lucky to be in the room for. And this resonated with me, I think, more than anything any politicians ever said. He said, if politics is the art of the possible, at least in life, give the impossible a go. And I thought, that is absolutely how I feel. things, have a go, you know, and obviously in the line of work I'm in, you have to do that.
No one's going to do anything for you. You have to get off your backside and gig around the country and make a name for yourself and everything else. And there is a pleasure in that. There's a pleasure in the journey, even if you don't reach the destination. I think I feel really bad for people when I meet them who kind of wish they'd have had a go at something. And it might not be a career thing. It could be something small. But if you've got an interest or a curiosity about something. Your time is limited, and it might be more limited than you fully appreciate. Try it! Give things a go, in life, and I think, um, You can't, you can't guarantee the outcome, But I think you enrich yourself, uh, more, I think you get more pleasure
Craig Oliver: So I don't want to bring the mood down too much but I did want to talk a little bit about death. And the reason I want to talk to you about that is just because suddenly you're confronted by your own mortality. We all know at the back of our mind it's all going to end and it's over at some point but we spend a huge amount of time ignoring it and like almost pretending it's not happening and maybe I'll be the one that doesn't doesn't go through it sort of thing. But then you're suddenly confronted by the reality of it and it might be that there's less sand in the hourglass than you perhaps thought that it was maybe going to end earlier. I'm just wondering about what that realization made you think, feel, um, impacted on you? Did you feel cheated that this might all go badly wrong and was going to be shorter or did you feel, God, this is just going to make me even more positive?
Matt Forde: I felt sad. I felt very sad. I just thought, I don't want to go now. And, it was, the only thing, was that I wanted more time with my wife. That was the thing. That was was in the room with me, but in my mind it was her that I saw was just that is all I wanted that was Because in your head and I think most of us do this If you think you kind of think of your parents or your grandparents think well I'll get to my 70s at least. And then you start to think, well, I see people now in their 70s, they're young. They've got amazing lives. They've got better social lives than I have. So then you think, well, 70 odd isn't old anymore. So then you think, I'll get to my 80s. You know, I would feel like, if people in their 70s who would get similar news and have similar conversations would think, this is too early for me. Not ready yet. So to, you know, 40, I just thought, fucking hell. And then you're trying to, and then I was thinking, give me five, give me ten, and I can find a way that is a good deal. You know, and even then you're…
Craig Oliver: You start bargaining with it.
Matt Forde: Yeah, you're bargaining in your head. I mean, what, the thing that was really, um, obviously this podcast is about wisdom. There was an amazing thing that, um, the consultant who operated on me said. So, the sort of cancer I had is a Chordoma, it has a 60 percent recurrence rate. So, you go through all this. And the chances are it's going to come back. Six in ten chance of it coming back. Turns out, actually, there are things that can be done. So, we were talking about this prior to the operation. And he says it's got 60 percent recurrence rate. So I was like, man, I'm going to put myself through all this for 60%. Chance of it coming back? Um. And he said, well, we'll keep monitoring you. And Chordomas often, uh, recur locally. Not necessarily in the bone, it might be in fatty tissue or whatever, and we can control it with radiation and, and we treat people here that have recurrences that live for years and indeed live for decades.
So I said, alright, so I said, a recurrence isn't necessarily a death sentence then, and he said, no more than life is. And I, I howled laughing. I don't think he, I'm not sure if he's used that line before, it didn't feel to me like he had. I burst out laughing, and I think he was quite taken aback at how funny I felt, found it. I thought, what a, that was a phenomenal thing to hear. That is one of the, I think the single white, you know, often with wisdom is, it only really resonates with you when you're in the moment where you really need to hear it. You know, you all think of good quotes and things, they're great, but when you really need to hear that, that is electric to be told that and actually it turns out
Craig Oliver: And it's also that I think that it's a clarifying thing. It's a clarifying thing as well, isn't it? It's like it is like we all know that it's going to end but then there's like Knowing it's going to end and actually this is finite and it might be today, it might be in 30 years And I suppose what the one that somebody said to me once was look, you know, you're going to die and if somebody said to you, you're going to die in a week, your behavior would just change dramatically. You'd tell people, you know, that you loved them. You'd maybe want to experience another thing. You'd want to do other things. So why don't you apply the clarity of that? To your life now, and I think there are limits to that. I don't think you can just go round saying, like, telling everybody you love them and go paragliding or whatever all the time. But it does mean that you can think, this is finite, it's important, I can cherish it, I can do the things that maybe I'm a little frightened of in terms of emotionally or even physically, because it's finite.And so actually it's, uh, if we didn't have a limit then we would never, sort of, learn these things.
Matt Forde: No, that's right. And I think that can mean all sorts of different things. I mean one thing I've always done anyway, is if someone's done something nice or good. I've always told them I've always been the sort of person to say. Oh, that was great. But not everyone does that and in a way it's made me see the value of that is everyone who came to visit me in hospital or messaged, I'm just so grateful for because there are times when you need to take strength from somewhere.
One of the things I would say is I know people sometimes don't know what to say if you're in a situation like I was in. So they think, Oh God, should I message? Because if he's having a good day, is this going to remind him that? He's in a bad situation. What if I word it wrong? What if I piss him off? Now what's definitely true is, some people's wording was far better than other people's. And some messages were nicer…
Craig Oliver: Have you got any examples of bad ones?
Matt Forde: Well, it wasn't like, no one said, I hope you die or anything like that. But it was almost sometimes people could be a bit abrupt, or it was almost like, um, It could, obviously,,,
Craig Oliver: Or chin up sort of thing.
Matt Forde: Or just, got any updates? You know, stuff like that, you're like, Eh? But I just knew, and you have to forgive people that, because they're bothered. They want to know, and they're just probably agonizing over the wording, or just don't know how to get it right. So, I would just think, okay, that, um, my wife had a thing where she was like, some go in the helpful pile, some go in the unhelpful pile. And we would talk about this, and I was like, Yeah, but you have to forgive people who are communicating in an unhelpful way, because it doesn't mean you have to, you know, I would be less likely to reply to certain messages, because they definitely do, Sometimes, um, you know, they're just less pleasurable, I guess, to engage with, but it's always nicer to get a message than not. It's always nicer to know that someone's bearing you in mind. So, uh, you know, if you know someone's going through something, absolutely message them.
Craig Oliver: One of the things a lot of people talk about in terms of being wise about life and how it operates and all that kind of thing is, try to live in the moment, try not to live in the future, um, or the past. Has it altered the way in which you approach life, or are you just back to sunny, optimistic man?
Matt Forde: I certainly feel like I'm where I was before, really, fundamentally. I think maybe I am, maybe it's too recent to, to, for me to have come to a settled view on the impact of it on me psychologically. What I definitely do, I mean, maybe it's in smaller things, and I guess maybe they're an expression of a bigger thing, but, um, making life a bit more comfortable for yourself. I just mean, for me, physical comfort now is far, far bigger a priority. And I can't, if I do things like this, I'll have to lie down for a few hours because sitting on my ass for too long can trigger very low level neuropathic pain in my legs. So obviously we were meant to record this the other week and I basically overcommitted myself and wasn't comfortable, um, literally able to do it.
So, um, I've learned the value of rest, of physical comfort, you know, I just basically my wardrobe is a couple of pairs of jeans Suits and shirts that I wear on stage and then just football shirts just endless crap football shirts I would never wear again. Old England ones and Forest ones got this huge collection of clothes. I never wear that, you know that nylon the aren’t actually that comfortable to wear. I've learned the comfort of a really nice hoodie a tracksuit of pillows and cushions and, um, uh, of like a, I guess you'd call it a dressing gown butt, like a thick thing that I wear in the morning. And like I've learned, really learned the value of physical comfort.
And, and that may sound like a very small thing, but I think it's an expression of a deeper thing, which is just make life a bit easy for yourself. You know, you still have to do the thing, you still have to work and function. And I still have ambition and drive as well as that but make sure it's not the detriment of your physical and mental health.
Craig Oliver: The other thing that you're known for is your obsession with politics and love of politics. Um, and yet you're back doing your political party podcast, which is brilliant. And I've loved listening to the recent episodes, um, and that's fantastic to have you back. I wonder if, you know, do you look at politics a bit now and think, actually, try and put it in perspective, it's not as big a deal as, as I perhaps had thought it was?
Matt Forde: Definitely. I barely paid any attention when I was in there. I mean, it felt obviously, I am someone who is totally political, and obviously politics has a huge effect on what happens, and how could I, when receiving such amazing treatment on the NHS, not realise the politics of every decision and every bit of care that I received. But, I didn't follow it as much. I wasn't as bothered. When I got a bit more recovered, Um, I maybe watched PMQs two or three times.
Craig Oliver: And how did you feel looking at it?
Matt Forde: What, watching PMQs?
Craig Oliver: Was it good to be watching it again or did you think, oh, this doesn't really matter?
Matt Forde: I'll tell you what was a nice feeling, was not being bothered about it, which is where most people are. So for the first time in my life, I had an insight into what it's like to not be that bothered. To actually, for it to completely pass you by, which is where the vast majority of people are. And then, just to get a snippet of it, and I always try and take my own politics out of it. In the snippets I saw, I just thought, Keir Starmer looks like he's Prime Minister already. And the sooner that happens, the better, really. Because it's just, I just feel like the nonsense has gone on too long. Like, why are we delaying the inevitable? There's always just a sense of like, God's sake, come on.
Craig Oliver: Just get it over.
Matt Forde: I'll tell you what was nice…. was lots of Labour people, um, talked to me, visited me, wrote to me. And my relationship with the Labour Party has been a fractious one. You know, I was an obsessive, I joined as soon as I could. And then I, I grew to really be repelled by it in the Corbyn years. And I've not rejoined. For a large part of my life, it was a big part of my identity and who I was. And in many ways, I guess, um, for a period of time, I was actively hostile towards it. And I know sometimes friends of mine in that world, uh, Wanted me to come back, maybe didn't like the way that I talked about certain things. Um, for them still to effectively care about me, and genuinely care about me, and, and really, um, root for me in a, in that time, I, I was very, very touched by. And it just reminds you that actually in people really, really do care. They care about individuals and they care about big things, and I really felt like, oddly, given that I feel like an outsider to it now, that, that, The Labour Party was, was really there for me.
Craig Oliver: And sticking on the politics a bit though, at the end of this year there is going to be like a massive election in the UK probably, probably at the year. And then there's also going to be one in the United States where it feels like it really, really does matter. You know, and that, you know, that Trump could become President again. Does that feel like something that's animating you, worrying you, concerning you?
Matt Forde: Massively. I mean, I, I the reason why these things troubling is This has such a big impact on the way that people can live their lives, and that was always why I got into politics was, I thought and the world was really unfair, and that life didn't have to be like this. People's lives could be hugely improved, that they could lead better, longer, healthier, happier lives. And you see what Trump does to people, you see what the outcomes are for people, you see what look around Britain! It's knackered! And it didn't have to be like this, and that's what really, my main reflection on the last few years is just we're completely let down by politicians on all sides and that life could, my politics always comes from a root of what you're actually doing to improve things. What are you doing this for? And I just worry I just think that people on the sorts of streets that I grew up on whose lives will be shorter, harder, less fulfilled as a result of this and anything they do really is almost despite politics at the moment and um I really, for the first time in a long time, feel like there is a politician that will make things better. I mean, in America, how on earth? And I thought this when it was Boris Johnson versus Jeremy Corbyn, and we've got 60 million people. How did we whittle it to this? And I say we, actually, because I don't believe that. How did they whittle it down to those two people? And obviously we know why, but what a terrible choice. And with Trump, how on earth is a party that has given the world some real statesmen in the past. How has the system delivered Biden versus Trump? I would obviously rather Biden win and for the geopolitical and and and for American political reasons, but good god Politics is really…
Craig Oliver: Do you see any humour in Trump?
Matt Forde: Oh God. Yeah, I mean Absolutely. Yeah, I mean he's a funny bloke and and this is this is um, this is why it's so difficult is I don't think you'd Get anywhere Pretending that he's not funny or that Boris isn't funny The outcomes they deliver aren't funny, but these are people who understand what is funny about them, and they understand how to make people laugh. The Trump show is a highly addictive thing. I mean, I've got friends way more left wing than me that are completely addicted to watching this bloke there is something highly addictive. You can't believe that someone in charge or on the verge of becoming in charge again would behave like that. You know, the fact that the stakes are so grave Is why it is so funny. It's just ludicrous to have an authority figure behave like that.
Craig Oliver: What would Trump say about Matt Ford's experiences?
Matt Forde: He's a total loser! I prefer people who don't get cancer, by the way. I think that's better and I think he got it because he's a loser. And the world would be great. You're a great man, by the way. You're a very beautiful man and the people who listen to this great, great show will know that you're a great man and I hope you live very long.
And I'm sure you will. I think you'll live I think you'll live a happy life by the way, I think you will find that, but Matt Forde IS A LOSER AND I WISH HIM DEAD! HE'D BE BETTER OFF DEAD! I mean, that's probably what he would do.
Craig Oliver: It is, the thing I find extraordinary watching him, I mean apart from exactly everything that you say, and some of it really, really is unbelievably serious. So like recently, um, you know, the E. Jean Carroll case where he was in court, not deciding whether or not he was a rapist, but that actually that the law had decided he was a rapist and he's in court and you're like, hang on a minute, this guy is literally a candidate to be the most powerful person on earth, but you're right. It is just the mad absurdity of that and for me, I think watching him. It's like if you were talking about lifespan He would have to be the person who was going to live till 200 and be the best lifespan ever it's like whatever he does he has to be the most extraordinary example and yet Somehow that's not seen through by tens and tens of millions of people.
Matt Forde: I can totally understand how, even just from seeing politics in our country, let alone, um, an admitted, limited, um, understanding of, of broader American politics. You can see how people become, um, tribal. You can see how they'd rather, in our view, totally against their own interests, back someone like that. And the way that he weaponizes edge issues, I think it's, you know, we, we can see through it, but I can see how people become, I can see how he rallies people, that he's a demagogue, he's entertaining, he, um, picks on the weak, he blames people, he's relentless in the way that he blames people, people from different backgrounds, um, all sorts of things. He's a, he is a highly effective whipper up of the mob and um, it may seem odd to us from here but, you know, people over here, look at how many people voted for a Labour party led by Corbyn, look at how many people voted for a Tory party led by Boris Johnson. Yes, they're different to Trump, but they, but they're expressions they're British expressions of similar things, which is, if it's your team, you are, you are prepared to look beyond their faults, even though they are grave.
Craig Oliver: We always ask at the end, um, what's the one piece of wisdom that you'd want to pass on. And so, that's a bit strange I was thinking, because you're the first person to come onto the podcast twice. So, we're asking you sort of for like, your one piece of wisdom, but it's part two. Last time you said, throw yourself into it, don't compare yourself to others. Recognize it's just one life, and it's yours, so to make the most of it. Um, has the experience that you've been through over the last year made you think slightly differently in terms of that there's another thing? Not that that's not important, but that is actually, there's another thing I'd like to say?
Matt Forde: I think, I guess from my very, um, raw experience, difficult times pass. They do, you do get through it, things move on and you emerge stronger, relieved, and, and more grateful, I think.
Craig Oliver: This is a theme that comes up quite a lot people saying stick with it, and that there are moments in life where you just think, God this is awful, and some more serious than others. And I suppose the way that it, that it reminds me of Churchill saying, when you're going through hell, keep going. And it's because actually things do change, things do pass, things do move on.
Matt Forde: Funny you mention Churchill, because one of the lines of his that I really like, that makes me feel emotional, I can't remember the final end of the sentence. But when he says, if this island's story of ours, it might be, is to end or something. And I thought, he's really encapsulated there, this island's story of ours. You know, there's something in. What is my story? And how does it end? And there's a sort of collective story. And I just thought, I thought about that a lot because I thought, I don't want it end of mine. And there was something quite romantic in, I found it in that wording of that quote. That I thought about my own life….we are all sort of little stories and and and I hope I get to the point I hope I'm privileged enough to get to the point that when my day comes I do think yeah All right. This isn't a bad time to go. I hope it feels like that when you just like I need to sleep now I want to get to that with my life from like If I go now, it's alright. I'm knackered. You know, you want to get to, I don't know, 90s maybe, in good health, and um, and just to feel like you've, you've had enough. Time for a kip.
Craig Oliver: Matt Forde, it's brilliant to see you looking so great and laughing and thank you very much.
Matt Forde: Cheers, mate.